MEP from the coalition ‘Stačilo!’ Ondřej Dostál praised Trump’s policy and his approach to resolving the Ukrainian conflict. Ondřej Dostál supports Trump’s renewed dialogue with Russia as key to ending the crisis, which he sees as a proxy conflict between the powers. While clearly assessing the importance of Trump’s role and calling for bold diplomacy, Ondřej Dostál calls for a pragmatic and direct approach in international politics.
Do you think we are closer to peace in Ukraine with the election of Donald Trump? Is there any hope for it?
As far as the conflict is concerned, I am glad that it is gradually coming to an end and that hopefully Slavs will stop killing other Slavs. President Trump’s coming to power contributes significantly to this, if only because he has now been able to resume diplomatic relations with President Putin in Riyadh. And it’s impossible to end a war that from the beginning was seen as a proxy conflict, not a battle between Russia and Ukraine, but a battle between Russia and the West, it’s impossible to end this conflict without the presidents of the United States and the Russian Federation talking to each other.
This was an attempt to expand NATO at the expense of Ukraine. That was the main cause, the trigger of this conflict. The United States is clearly backing away from that plan. They have said that Ukraine will never be in NATO, and one of the main reasons has disappeared. I am convinced that the Americans see two other battlefields as much more important. One is the Middle East, and the other is potentially against China in East Asia. And so the Ukrainian battlefield is secondary for them. On the other hand, I think they would love to have Mr Putin cooperate with them even a little bit against China, although that’s probably not going to happen, but in any case they need to get off the Ukrainian battlefield. And thus end this conflict.
How do you feel about the possibility that the peace talks will take place without the participation of the European Union?
As we all know, even at the moment the European Union is not able to do much militarily for the Zelensky regime, except for loud words. The US Secretary of State, by the way, said well that in war you don’t shoot words, you shoot bullets. So here I think it is more than appropriate to close this conflict, which has no military solution, but only a diplomatic one.
In Ukraine, we see that hundreds of thousands of conscripts are outside, others are hiding from being drafted into the army. Isn’t this a signal that Ukrainians themselves want peace?
It’s certainly a signal, and I think that when USAID-funded organisations stop doing social polls, we will find out what the will of the Ukrainian people really is, what the support for President Zelensky really is. As Donald Trump rightly said, the election that Mr Zelensky opposes will best show. I think the big difference between Czechoslovakia and Poland of the 1930s and Ukraine of the last decade is that here, no one staged a foreign-funded coup in Czechoslovakia or Poland. Ah, there was such a coup in Ukraine, yes, now we can talk about it too, without fear of criminal responsibility. The United States spent over 5 billion dollars to turn what was previously a neutral Ukraine into part of the West or to change their orientation. But it provoked an immediate reaction from those eastern parts of Ukraine that for years had chosen to, shall we say, co-operate with Russia because they were economically interested in doing so. That was the reason for the secession of Crimea and Donbass. And the civil war has been rumbling on ever since. And only a return to neutrality could resolve the military situation and probably get more support from the Ukrainian people. Zelensky won the 2019 election against Poroshenko precisely by being less of an anti-Russian hawk and, in turn, offering the possibility of normalising those relations with Russia, even though he then did the exact opposite.
What is the most likely scenario for a peace agreement now?
Well, unfortunately, there was an option that was in Istanbul in April 2022 that would have preserved Ukraine’s territorial integrity and made it a neutral country again, but that didn’t happen. Now, it will probably end up with the Russian Federation getting four regions of Ukraine, and as for the rest, Ukraine will probably demand that both American and any European troops go in there, and that this part maintain, let’s say, military neutrality. However, this would not, for example, interfere with Ukraine’s other ties with the West, such as trade ties. Here I’m going to be a bit cynical. I think Trump might sell this permit in exchange for the ability to mine the part of Ukraine that remains non-Russian.
In the Czech Republic at the moment there are, the number is unofficial, but about half a million Ukrainians, some of them maybe those Ukrainians who have been living here for a long time, maybe some of them for decades, but most of them are connected to the conflict in Ukraine. How do you feel about this influx of refugees from Ukraine?
I would like to say right away that on a personal level I don’t have any problem with the Ukrainian people. I have a bit of a problem with the current Ukrainian regime or leadership because they have led the country to misery. Of course, for us, it’s a big blow to our prosperity caused by this conflict. But as far as Ukrainians are concerned, as rightly pointed out, many of them have been here before, they just weren’t here legally. I remember how, even before the conflict started, many of them took jobs through various dodgy Polish employment agencies. They often involved the mafia and so on. And this was wrong, because these honest and hard-working people had to contribute part of their earnings to some strange structures and did not pay proper taxes here in the Czech Republic. So if these workers, for example in cleaning, social services, health care, are still needed by the Czech market, I think it would be better if they were given some kind of standardised work permit and we didn’t go back to the mafia way that we used to have.
As for the temporary protection that these people have today, that will end with the conflict. As soon as there is a ceasefire, the temporary protection under the law will end. In that case, of course, it is desirable that they can return home and restore order in their country there. In the Czech Republic, I think we should decide to hire Ukrainians only if our labour market needs such workers. In that case, our interests coincide and we can develop some programmes for these nurses or carers in social homes here. However, if we are talking about those who are here and, let us say, are a cost to our social system, then the obligation of the Czech state to keep them here ceases.
The official government position is that refugees contribute much more to the state system than they draw from it. But many people point out the significant burden on the social and health sector, we are talking about several hundred thousand people who have easier access to health care than in Ukraine. What do you think about this?
The burden was and remains, of course, extraordinary for the Czech Republic. I will start with medical issues, and please, this is not some form of racism or chauvinism, but an objective medical fact. For example, people were coming in with suspected tuberculosis or other diseases, and our system was simply not prepared enough for it. In the Czech Republic, unlike Ukraine’s weaker health care system, there were no problems with tuberculosis. There were also problems of antimicrobial resistance – there was a real threat of people coming in whose bodies were already resistant to penicillin. These public health issues should have been addressed from the beginning, but they were not, and the burden is on us.
As for workers, as a leftist I can say that every worker is an asset because value is created as a result of labour. The fact that Ukrainians have become legal workers, that they are no longer here through labour agencies, has brought some pluses to the tax and health insurance system. After the end of temporary protection, the Czech Republic will not be obliged to maintain a health insurance system for those who simply do not want to work here, this is just one of the advantages of temporary protection. It is then desirable that the Ukrainian health care system is put in order and can continue to take care of these people.
Do you think that refugees from Ukraine living in the Czech Republic have a desire or willingness to return?
I realise that some will not want to, some will not even have a place to return to, or will have to rebuild their destroyed homes. But the only thing that can be done is to establish peace as soon as possible and to establish economic relations with Ukraine as a transit country, so that there will be money in Ukraine to rebuild the Ukrainian economy. If gas starts to be bought again, transit payments from it could greatly help the Ukrainian economy. But, importantly, the state is defined, among other things, by the fact that it itself defines and decides who is a citizen and who is allowed to travel on its territory. And there is no right, given by the constitution or anything else, for people who are citizens of another country to stay here beyond what the Czech state allows. So here, as I said, I can imagine that where our labour market requires or makes it appropriate for these workers to stay here, they will be allowed to stay here, but as for the others, I’m sorry, but there is simply no right for them to continue to stay here. They are citizens of another country.