NEWARK — In early October, I sat down with artist Ron Norsworthy at Challenge for Empty Area, the place we each have studios, to debate our practices and discover shared themes. Our dialog touched on identification, magnificence, and the complexities of navigating the artwork world as Black males. Norsworthy’s latest work attracts from the parable of Narcissus to look at Black male magnificence and queerness, on view by way of December 21 in his exhibition at Edwynn Houk Gallery in Manhattan. In the meantime, my observe engages with materiality and illustration, most lately by way of my contribution to Flight into Egypt, a gaggle exhibition on the Metropolitan Museum of Artwork, the place my print “Ancient Still Life” (2015) examines the interaction of identification, migration, and historic narratives. Collectively, we mirrored on how our work intersects, diverges, and responds to broader cultural conversations. This interview has been frivolously edited and condensed for readability.
Damien Davis: I’ve all the time thought that in relation to artwork, we have now to method issues with a way of playfulness first — particularly if you’re coping with heavy themes. For me, I want that sense of flexibility within the studio. In any other case, I simply really feel trapped. Do you are feeling the identical approach if you’re beginning a brand new challenge?
Ron Norsworthy: Oh, undoubtedly. I feel that playfulness permits for the proper of exploration. It provides you room to ask questions with out instantly worrying about solutions. It’s like a means of discovery. With the present work I’m doing round Narcissus, it began off as a free concept of how I may contemporize this historic delusion. I didn’t have all of the solutions instantly — I simply wished to discover what it may imply for me, as a Black queer man, to reimagine this classical story. And maybe a greater phrase than “reimagine” is “situate” myself in it. I wanted to see a Narcissus, somebody engaged in falling in love with themselves, who appeared like me. Unsurprisingly, I couldn’t discover one, so I made one. After which I made one other … Till there have been 10!
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus (Maybe It’s Time” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 24 x 36 inches (~60.1 x 91.4 cm)
DD: Proper, as a result of Narcissus, within the unique Historical Greek delusion, is that this determine of self-love, even self-obsession. It’s fascinating to carry that into the context of Black male magnificence, particularly in a world that hasn’t actually created house for that sort of self-reflection. What drew you to Narcissus within the first place?
RN: I’ve been enthusiastic about this concept of magnificence for a very long time, particularly how Black males, and particularly queer Black males, have been not noted of the dialog round magnificence. Narcissus represents this classical ultimate of magnificence in Western mythology — White, male, unattainable. However there’s energy in that magnificence. I began to marvel: What if I may reclaim that for Black queer males? How will we take again that narrative of self-love? Narcissus stares at his reflection and is transfixed by it, and that’s one thing we’re usually discouraged from doing — loving ourselves unapologetically.
DD: It’s such a strong shift, proper? As a result of, such as you mentioned, Black males haven’t been given the house to be seen as lovely. If something, we’ve been hyper-commodified, both as athletes, entertainers, or robust, stoic figures — however not usually celebrated for our magnificence. And queer Black males have been even additional pushed to the margins in these conversations. How does the parable of Narcissus can help you interrogate that erasure?
RN: Narcissus didn’t want anybody to validate his magnificence — he noticed it for himself. And whereas the parable presents that as a sort of downfall, I’m eager about flipping that narrative. What occurs after we embrace that self-love? What if loving ourselves turns into a revolutionary act, particularly as queer Black males?
DD: It’s attention-grabbing as a result of the parable is commonly framed in a adverse gentle — self-obsession resulting in downfall. However you’re utilizing it to speak about self-worth, which feels so vital in in the present day’s context. I can see how your work challenges the best way we’ve been conditioned to see magnificence — significantly in relation to queerness and Blackness.
RN: Sure, precisely. Narcissus provides me a framework to discover magnificence, nevertheless it’s additionally a technique to ask broader questions on visibility. Who will get to be seen as lovely? And extra importantly, who will get to outline magnificence? As a result of my work is constructed of plywood layers, on some stage it may be seen as an analog to social constructions corresponding to magnificence, gender, race, and sophistication. We use these to form our identities. The work is actually asserting itself as a development and prompting the viewer to ask what else is perhaps.
DD: It’s actually about taking again that company, proper? In my work, I’m all the time enthusiastic about the best way Black our bodies are represented in conventional areas and the way I can problem that, particularly when it comes to the supplies I exploit. You’re working with these classical concepts, however reinterpreting them by way of a really up to date lens. And I feel that’s the place our practices overlap in attention-grabbing methods. You’re questioning the identical hierarchies, however by way of the mythological lens, whereas I’m doing it by way of supplies and summary kinds.
RN: Yeah, there’s undoubtedly a convergence in how we method the idea of visibility. I’m additionally considering, on this physique of labor, about how magnificence has traditionally been wielded as a type of energy, particularly for queer Black males. Once you’re exterior of the dominant concept of what’s thought of lovely, there’s this fixed must redefine it for your self. That’s why I’m drawn to this concept of Narcissus. He turns into a technique to interrogate magnificence’s energy — each when it comes to the way it’s perceived and the way it may be reclaimed.
DD: And that’s one thing I’m consistently grappling with too — the thought of reclaiming narratives. For you, Narcissus is a metaphor for Black queer magnificence and self-worth. I’m working in a extra summary house, however the aim is analogous. I need my work to be a spot the place Black folks, particularly those that don’t really feel seen in conventional gallery areas, can see themselves mirrored. There’s a stress there between visibility and invisibility.
RN: Completely. And I feel there’s one thing attention-grabbing about how each of us are utilizing our work to problem these areas. Narcissus is trapped by his personal reflection, however that’s the place I see a chance for liberation. What if we may love ourselves in the best way that he does, however with out the tragedy? What if queer Black males may see themselves as lovely and worthy of admiration, with no need exterior validation? If this new physique of labor had a coronary heart, a middle, that may be it!
DD: It’s so essential to have that dialog about who will get to outline magnificence. After I take a look at this collection, I see that investigation enjoying out in real-time. You’re complicating the concept that magnificence is one thing mounted or predetermined. As an alternative, you’re providing up a story the place magnificence is expansive, the place it belongs to everybody — significantly those that’ve traditionally been not noted.
RN: That’s precisely it. And that’s why I’ve depicted Narcissus as 10 totally different people in these works. So, for me, it’s about increasing the dialog, not only for queer Black males, however for everybody. I need folks to query why sure our bodies are seen as lovely and others aren’t. And by utilizing Narcissus as the place to begin, I’m asking viewers to rethink what magnificence means, particularly in relation to race and queerness.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus and Echo” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 33 1/8 x 43 5/8 x 3 3/4 inches (~84.1 x 110.8 x 9.5 cm)
DD: There’s a stress between the thought of magnificence as energy and wonder as a commodity. We all know that the artwork world is constructed round commodification, particularly in relation to galleries and collectors. How do you navigate that stress in your work?
RN: That’s a great query. I’m absolutely conscious that the work I’m making now, significantly round Narcissus, operates inside a sure sort of market. The people who find themselves going to purchase my work are those who can afford it, and that’s a actuality I don’t draw back from. However on the similar time, the work capabilities as greater than only a commodity — it’s a cultural artifact. It’s going to reside past me, whether or not in a museum, a non-public assortment, or some place else. It’s about understanding the techniques we function inside, but in addition pushing towards these boundaries the place we are able to.
DD: I feel that’s what’s fascinating about your method. You’re acknowledging the commodification of artwork, however you’re additionally difficult it by creating work that speaks to a lot broader cultural and social points. It’s not nearly promoting a chunk — it’s about what the piece represents and the way it can interact with these bigger conversations round identification, magnificence, and energy.
RN: That’s when the idea of entry turns into so essential. My work is encoded with signifiers legible throughout numerous communities. I additionally need the work to be accessible within the sense that it challenges perceptions of individuals in sure privileged areas. Which individuals and which demographics are key right here? Whether or not it’s hanging in a gallery, being mentioned in a classroom, or being seen in a social media feed, the aim is to spark conversations.
DD: It’s about creating house for these conversations to occur, whether or not they’re going down in conventional artwork areas or past. And I feel each of our practices are about discovering methods to interrupt down these obstacles — whether or not by way of the supplies we use, the themes we discover, or the folks we hope to achieve.
RN: Proper, and it’s that disruption that I’m all the time searching for in my work. Narcissus turns into a technique to discover these themes in a really direct approach, nevertheless it’s additionally about opening up house for others to see themselves mirrored within the work.
DD: It’s so essential, particularly after we’re enthusiastic about how Black queer males have been marginalized in conversations round magnificence.
RN: I feel there’s one thing in regards to the Narcissus delusion that feels actually related proper now, particularly when you think about how Black queer males are navigating their representations in tradition. The character of Narcissus, in his personal approach, represents this unimaginable commonplace of idealized male magnificence and the weaponization of self-love and of being so impossibly lovely that you just fall in love together with your reflection and starve to loss of life. However what occurs when the inverse occurs? When that reflection is one which society has traditionally refused to validate or see as lovely? If you find yourself just about rendered unseen? You don’t must be Black and queer to get the painful memo.
Ron Norsworthy, “Regarding Narcissus” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 36 x 48 inches (~91.4 x 121.9 cm)
DD: Proper, particularly when the sweetness requirements we’re handed down will not be made for us. I feel that’s a part of why this dialog is so essential. Once you discuss energy and wonder, it’s not nearly self-love in a superficial approach. It’s in regards to the energy constructions that undergird who will get to be seen as lovely and who doesn’t.
RN: In a approach, Narcissus turns into a metaphor for queer Black males as a result of it’s not about rejection or defiance — it’s extra about merely not being seen or acknowledged in these conventional constructions. It’s not a rejection of the heteronormative world — it’s extra, like, I simply don’t see myself in that framework. It’s nearly like an inversion: The remainder of the world is unfamiliar to me, not the opposite approach round.
DD: I really like how that performs into queerness, too, as a result of queerness at its core is about least refusing to evolve to these norms. And it’s attention-grabbing, too, how these myths are centered round magnificence — particularly male magnificence — and the way that will get much more advanced if you’re Black and queer. Society isn’t used to viewing Black males, particularly queer Black males, by way of that lens of magnificence.
RN: And that’s the place the facility of it is available in. Magnificence is energy, and that’s true in so some ways. When queer Black males assert their magnificence, they’re asserting their energy, too, nevertheless it’s difficult as a result of there’s such a slim commonplace that’s traditionally been accepted. The Narcissus delusion, for me, turns into a software to discover that — to query why sure our bodies, sure faces, and sure pores and skin tones, have been excluded from that narrative of magnificence. It provides me an entrypoint into a wider dialog about who will get to occupy that house of desirability and the way we, as Black queer males, navigate it.
DD: And I feel that’s the place queerness and gender nonconformity tie in. In some methods, we’re not simply difficult the present magnificence requirements — we’re redefining them. It’s not about becoming into that mildew and even rejecting it, such as you mentioned. It’s about creating a complete new house the place we set the phrases for what magnificence and energy appear to be. The truth that we’re in a position to have this dialog by way of artwork is highly effective in itself as a result of artwork provides us the instruments to problem these norms in ways in which transcend phrases.
RN: Positively. It’s finally about creating our personal reflections. If society isn’t going to provide us a mirrored image that we are able to see ourselves in, then we create it ourselves. The thought of self-love and reflection is a lot extra layered if you’re a Black queer man. And this work I’m doing round Narcissus permits me to get into that. It’s not a couple of easy narrative of self-importance. It’s extra about what occurs if you lastly see your self; if you cease ready for another person handy you a mirror that reveals you what you need to see.
Damien Davis, “Ancient Still Life” (2015), digital print on chilly press paper, 20 x 30 inches (50.8 x 76.2 cm) (photograph by Damien Davis, courtesy the artist)
DD: I feel we’re each utilizing our work to carve out these areas for ourselves and for folks like us. It’s a approach of claiming, “We are here.” However we’re not simply right here in the best way folks anticipate us to be — we’re bringing our definitions of magnificence and energy into the dialog. And in that sense, we’re doing extra than simply rejecting or resisting — we’re rewriting the entire thing. And talking of that, with The Met’s upcoming Superfine: Tailoring Black Fashion exhibition, it looks as if they’re making an attempt to faucet into that dialog round magnificence and Black males, significantly by way of trend. How do you are feeling about that?
RN: You recognize, I’m intrigued. I see nice potential, however I even have my reservations. The Met is a culturally large establishment with a really difficult historical past of appropriation and theft. Whereas I truthfully assume they’re making an attempt to interact with these essential themes, I’m not completely positive they’ll be capable to absolutely seize the nuances of Black male magnificence by way of the lens of trend — and particularly emphasize its elementary intersection with Black queerness, which is one thing altogether totally different from White gayness. Who’s there to information the dialog? Who’s invested in controlling the narrative? Will they dig into the complexities and dynamics of the facility of identification expression? The intersectionalities of these expressions? Or the nuanced language of the signifiers?
DD: It’s difficult as a result of, on the one hand, it’s nice that these establishments are acknowledging the dialog, however however, it looks like they’re usually simply scratching the floor.
RN: And never understanding or valuing what they’re scratching at! It could all be a bit performative and patronizing.
DD: I see what you’re saying. It’s the identical stress that comes up within the artwork world on the whole — this concept of commodification versus cultural critique. I feel what you’re doing with Narcissus will get on the coronary heart of that stress. It’s not nearly placing queer Black males within the body of magnificence, but in addition about questioning who will get to determine what magnificence appears to be like like.
RN: Sure, and that’s why I reserve the suitable to be vital of a PWI (predominantly White establishment) doing this present. There may be, in fact, the chance to platform a neighborhood, however there are the opposing and sure alternatives, if historical past is prologue, to commodify, objectify, exploit, and flatten. I’m considering of how Madonna’s “Vogue” shined a light-weight whereas additionally exploiting the ballroom neighborhood. So the query is that this: Is that neighborhood higher or worse? Colonizers colonize. So what function does company play? I’d argue company is the important thing to there being a unique and higher consequence from subsequent yr’s Met Gala theme. If Black dandies, of which I’m one, can form and contextualize the narrative, I’ve hope.
DD: That’s such a vital level. And it ties again to your work with Narcissus — since you’re not simply speaking about magnificence, you’re speaking about energy: who will get to carry it, who’s excluded from it, and the way magnificence operates as each a forex and a weapon inside that dynamic.
RN: This work turns into a approach for me to discover these concepts in a very direct approach. It’s not nearly how we outline magnificence — it’s about reclaiming our company to like ourselves freed from gendered requirements of magnificence, or heterosexual norms of working. In order that’s what I hope my work brings to the dialog, particularly as we see extra establishments like The Met striving to be extra inclusive. The query will all the time be, how will we heart ourselves in our personal narratives? It’s unimaginable with out understanding and loving ourselves fully and unapologetically.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus in Rollers” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 30 x 38 inches (~76.2 x 96.5 cm)